Hi Paul;
As I’m sure you already know, Steve Stricker uses no hands at all in his swing, yet hits the ball as well as most players. Is he nothing but an anomaly to current teaching techniques? Would it not be easier for amateurs to copy Stricker’s swing, thus not relying on timing to create & hold the proper angle till impact? Thanks.
I just watched video of his swing. He hinges to almost 90 degrees at the top. He then keeps this angle into the downswing. So he is not lagging it to the max at the top or on the way down. I think this is due to the swing changes he made a few years ago when he tightened up his wrists. As he starts down he does so with the hips. They are at the ball by the time his lead arm is parallel to the ground. Then they are upwards of 45 degrees open at impact. So he is using his body but with locked wrists. Why he is doing this is unknown other than maybe he thought his old swing was causing him to manipulate the club.
He the releases the club at it approaches impact so he is using his wrists in the sense of them release he is just not fully hinging the club in the backswing. He is a tour player who has hit millions of balls. The problem with getting your average player to do this is that they are already doing this and it is not working.
You average player has locked wrists. The difference between what he is doing and what the average player is doing is that even with his wrists locked he can still use his lower body to power the swing. The average players wrists are locked because they are whacking away at it. How do you get an average player with locked wrist to stop hitting? Turn off the arms the club starts hinging better now the average player can actually feel them doing something with their legs. Keep everything locked and they will never feel the legs.
When you are swinging do you keep your shoulders forward throughout (forward but not too stretched)? If I do this it keeps my arc wide and forces my arms to move better with the body. I notice that part of the chicken wing move is to pull my left shoulder back after impact. Is the feeling of my shoulders forward the feeling I should have throughout the swing?
Also, It looks like I will be in Vegas in the fall. When are you having school in October?
Not sure what you are trying to describe with the shoulders. I am doing nothing with my shoulders in the downswing. They should be uncoiling on their own if you power the swing with the lower body:
So you coil the left shoulder back around a stable base so you coil your spring. Then you uncoil the legs. In doing so the top of the spring (your shoulders) uncoils on its own.
HI Paul, thanks for the tip. One thing I notice as I transition from hitting to powerless arms is the whipping of the golf club. As someone who never experienced this previously, this is an amazing new feeling of the club lagging, and then seeing the club shaft flash before your eyes as it whips/releases. I am working hard to keep my arms powerless and watching for any regression as best I can. Thank you again for all you help!
It is a great day when you no longer try to hit the ball with your arms and get that solid powerful feeling. What you have to be careful of is getting too excited and going back to using them again.
Thanks Paul, yes I was topping it and now I don’t after viewing the tip above. The strike is so much better when cognisant of not rushing to look up to see the shot.
Greetings Paul At address would it be a mistake to start the back swing by letting the club swing loosely forward a bit and then start the full back swing.For me somehow i feel more relaxed
I think I understand you but I may be wrong. I actually start the butt of the club first very slightly then my body moves. I saw it when I filmed my swing from above a long time ago. If you want to do it that is fine just don’t make it noticeable. Don’t have the butt go to the target is this is what you were describing.
Thanks for getting back What i was sometimes doing was to let the club head swing slightly and freely towards the target and then starting it back into the full back swing I often see you do that when you are doing your favorite drill.You let the club swing easily toward the target before you start your backs wing . I know it’s only in practice but would it help to shut off arms through the rest of the swing. I might be all wrong with this Let me know if you can if i have made this clear Thanks
Paul, this is something I am really struggling with after years of locked wrists, white knuckles and inconsistent swings. If I really turn off my arms I tend to lose connection and end up dragging my hands through impact. When I try to keep my hands more centred through the swing I’m back to locked wrists. Your favourite drill v2 helps me a little to bring my hands through correctly but they still end up behind a bit.
Hello again Paul;
I just had to tell you I FINALLY got the feeling of powerless arms no more than 10 minutes ago, just swinging in my living room. What worked for me was starting with swings back & thru no more than waist high being certain to move hips 1st. It’s much easier with a very abbreviated swing, pausing at the end of the backswing. Then you can start with your hips 1st much easier than with a full swing. Then just slowly lengthen your swing, being certain to pause at the end of the back swing. I didn’t have trouble starting with my hips, but I could still feel myself pulling the club down to start the downswing. Although, I did find that even starting with the hips & feeling powerless arms, if the back elbow doesn’t stay tucked close to the body, you will still come over the top. The true test will be when I play tomorrow. Hoping to still feel powerless arms while playing, than just practice swings & not start the hitting with the arms. It’s always easier without a ball, but you already know that.
Now you know why I want people doing tons of practice swings off the ground. When you do you are not hitting anything. If you are not hitting anything you can actually feel your body powering the swing.
When you do to play have this thought not the thought of generating power. Get the feeling and the concept as well as some good contact then just speed up the rotation of your body to hit it farther.
Paul ,STEVE ELKINGTON and Golf Pro Martin AYRES show a move which they call THE MOST POWERFUL MOVE IN GOLF where you promote lag by dragging THE clubhead in THE takeaway ,then having a bowed wrist .
I tried it ,it doesn’t work for me and it throws away my tempo .
To improve lag ,I do as you say ,wrists very very soft ,and overswinging “A la JAMIE SADLOWSKI “,not as much OF course ,and thinking constantly in THE downswing ” LAG ,WAITRE,RELEASE “
Their drills is to try to get you to loosen the wrists. The problem is you don’t hit the ball going back. So as much as they want people to do this there is no way this will make you lag the club unless doing this unlocks (loosens up) your wrists. I really can’t see this working because people will still try to hit on the way down. I like what you are doing better. Be careful with the longer backswing. The longer most people go back the harder they try to hit on the way down. Harder you hit, the tighter you get, the slower the club swings. I would stick to parallel at the top.
Have you ever heard of “right foot eversion”. it is something Steve Elkington talks about. When club is set at the top and ready to transistion the right heel moves first and toward the target. supposedly it clears the hips and lets club come from the inside.???
I think I remember this back eons ago. The only way you can do this is by sliding laterally in the downswing. This lateral slide is not going to be too good for your swing unless of course you want to hit pushes, push fades and duck hooks.
Turn and shift as I show y in my touch the legs positions. I want circular rotation not excessive lateral.
First, I apologize for what is probably a technical post. Let’s say the shoulder joint, arms, and wrist joint form a double pendulum somewhat like Iron Byron. For the wrist joint to straighten just beyond impact, it would seem that the arms have to slow down before impact. Does this happen in your swing, and do you feel it or are you conscious of it?
An old physicist
Why would the arms slow down? The only reason the club slows down as it hit the ball is that the club hits the ball which slows it down. Other than that the club would be moving very fast to the release point where the hips actually stop in your golf swing.
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23 Responses to “Does Turning Off Arms Create Lag”
May 28, 2014
MichaelRodrickHi Paul;
As I’m sure you already know, Steve Stricker uses no hands at all in his swing, yet hits the ball as well as most players. Is he nothing but an anomaly to current teaching techniques? Would it not be easier for amateurs to copy Stricker’s swing, thus not relying on timing to create & hold the proper angle till impact? Thanks.
May 28, 2014
Paul WilsonMichael,
I just watched video of his swing. He hinges to almost 90 degrees at the top. He then keeps this angle into the downswing. So he is not lagging it to the max at the top or on the way down. I think this is due to the swing changes he made a few years ago when he tightened up his wrists. As he starts down he does so with the hips. They are at the ball by the time his lead arm is parallel to the ground. Then they are upwards of 45 degrees open at impact. So he is using his body but with locked wrists. Why he is doing this is unknown other than maybe he thought his old swing was causing him to manipulate the club.
He the releases the club at it approaches impact so he is using his wrists in the sense of them release he is just not fully hinging the club in the backswing. He is a tour player who has hit millions of balls. The problem with getting your average player to do this is that they are already doing this and it is not working.
You average player has locked wrists. The difference between what he is doing and what the average player is doing is that even with his wrists locked he can still use his lower body to power the swing. The average players wrists are locked because they are whacking away at it. How do you get an average player with locked wrist to stop hitting? Turn off the arms the club starts hinging better now the average player can actually feel them doing something with their legs. Keep everything locked and they will never feel the legs.
May 28, 2014
PaulSacchettiPaul,back
When you are swinging do you keep your shoulders forward throughout (forward but not too stretched)? If I do this it keeps my arc wide and forces my arms to move better with the body. I notice that part of the chicken wing move is to pull my left shoulder back after impact. Is the feeling of my shoulders forward the feeling I should have throughout the swing?
Also, It looks like I will be in Vegas in the fall. When are you having school in October?
Paul
May 28, 2014
Paul WilsonPaul,
Not sure what you are trying to describe with the shoulders. I am doing nothing with my shoulders in the downswing. They should be uncoiling on their own if you power the swing with the lower body:
Shoulders in downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/shoulders-downswing
So you coil the left shoulder back around a stable base so you coil your spring. Then you uncoil the legs. In doing so the top of the spring (your shoulders) uncoils on its own.
Uncoil 1: https://ignitiongolf.com/uncoil
Uncoil 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/uncoil-follow-up
Not sure about dates for fall schools just yet. I will be going over them with our superintendent in July.
May 28, 2014
TomHI Paul, thanks for the tip. One thing I notice as I transition from hitting to powerless arms is the whipping of the golf club. As someone who never experienced this previously, this is an amazing new feeling of the club lagging, and then seeing the club shaft flash before your eyes as it whips/releases. I am working hard to keep my arms powerless and watching for any regression as best I can. Thank you again for all you help!
May 28, 2014
Paul WilsonTom,
Glad you like the tips. Thanks for the feedback.
It is a great day when you no longer try to hit the ball with your arms and get that solid powerful feeling. What you have to be careful of is getting too excited and going back to using them again.
Watch:
You Will Top It: https://ignitiongolf.com/you-will-top-it/
May 30, 2014
TomThanks Paul, yes I was topping it and now I don’t after viewing the tip above. The strike is so much better when cognisant of not rushing to look up to see the shot.
May 30, 2014
Paul WilsonTom,
Just watch out for these topped, thin shots and slices in the future. If you see them slow down immediately.
May 28, 2014
johnhoyleGreetings Paul At address would it be a mistake to start the back swing by letting the club swing loosely forward a bit and then start the full back swing.For me somehow i feel more relaxed
May 28, 2014
Paul WilsonJohn,
I think I understand you but I may be wrong. I actually start the butt of the club first very slightly then my body moves. I saw it when I filmed my swing from above a long time ago. If you want to do it that is fine just don’t make it noticeable. Don’t have the butt go to the target is this is what you were describing.
I did a tip on it here:
DRILL: Takeaway Butt First: https://ignitiongolf.com/one-piece-takeaway-drill/
I talk about what happens when your hands go too far forward in this tip:
How A Faulty Grip Affects Your Swing: https://ignitiongolf.com/faulty-grip-affects-swing/
May 29, 2014
johnhoyleThanks for getting back What i was sometimes doing was to let the club head swing slightly and freely towards the target and then starting it back into the full back swing I often see you do that when you are doing your favorite drill.You let the club swing easily toward the target before you start your backs wing . I know it’s only in practice but would it help to shut off arms through the rest of the swing. I might be all wrong with this Let me know if you can if i have made this clear Thanks
May 29, 2014
Paul WilsonJohn,
Sure you can try this. I am just messing around when I am doing it. If if helps you free up the arms it may be good for you.
May 29, 2014
RichardBourkePaul, this is something I am really struggling with after years of locked wrists, white knuckles and inconsistent swings. If I really turn off my arms I tend to lose connection and end up dragging my hands through impact. When I try to keep my hands more centred through the swing I’m back to locked wrists. Your favourite drill v2 helps me a little to bring my hands through correctly but they still end up behind a bit.
May 29, 2014
Paul WilsonRichard,
This is what you need to do:
Release Progression: https://ignitiongolf.com/release-progression/
June 1, 2014
MichaelRodrickHello again Paul;
I just had to tell you I FINALLY got the feeling of powerless arms no more than 10 minutes ago, just swinging in my living room. What worked for me was starting with swings back & thru no more than waist high being certain to move hips 1st. It’s much easier with a very abbreviated swing, pausing at the end of the backswing. Then you can start with your hips 1st much easier than with a full swing. Then just slowly lengthen your swing, being certain to pause at the end of the back swing. I didn’t have trouble starting with my hips, but I could still feel myself pulling the club down to start the downswing. Although, I did find that even starting with the hips & feeling powerless arms, if the back elbow doesn’t stay tucked close to the body, you will still come over the top. The true test will be when I play tomorrow. Hoping to still feel powerless arms while playing, than just practice swings & not start the hitting with the arms. It’s always easier without a ball, but you already know that.
June 2, 2014
Paul WilsonMichael,
Whatever it takes to get it is good.
I did a tip showing a similar drill a while back:
DRILL: Start High Then Gradually Lower: https://ignitiongolf.com/start-high-gradually-lower/
Now you know why I want people doing tons of practice swings off the ground. When you do you are not hitting anything. If you are not hitting anything you can actually feel your body powering the swing.
When you do to play have this thought not the thought of generating power. Get the feeling and the concept as well as some good contact then just speed up the rotation of your body to hit it farther.
June 1, 2014
RaymondCHASTELPaul ,STEVE ELKINGTON and Golf Pro Martin AYRES show a move which they call THE MOST POWERFUL MOVE IN GOLF where you promote lag by dragging THE clubhead in THE takeaway ,then having a bowed wrist .
I tried it ,it doesn’t work for me and it throws away my tempo .
To improve lag ,I do as you say ,wrists very very soft ,and overswinging “A la JAMIE SADLOWSKI “,not as much OF course ,and thinking constantly in THE downswing ” LAG ,WAITRE,RELEASE “
June 2, 2014
Paul WilsonRaymond,
Their drills is to try to get you to loosen the wrists. The problem is you don’t hit the ball going back. So as much as they want people to do this there is no way this will make you lag the club unless doing this unlocks (loosens up) your wrists. I really can’t see this working because people will still try to hit on the way down. I like what you are doing better. Be careful with the longer backswing. The longer most people go back the harder they try to hit on the way down. Harder you hit, the tighter you get, the slower the club swings. I would stick to parallel at the top.
July 15, 2014
LARRYCLARKHave you ever heard of “right foot eversion”. it is something Steve Elkington talks about. When club is set at the top and ready to transistion the right heel moves first and toward the target. supposedly it clears the hips and lets club come from the inside.???
thanks,LC
July 16, 2014
Paul WilsonLarry,
I think I remember this back eons ago. The only way you can do this is by sliding laterally in the downswing. This lateral slide is not going to be too good for your swing unless of course you want to hit pushes, push fades and duck hooks.
Turn and shift as I show y in my touch the legs positions. I want circular rotation not excessive lateral.
July 16, 2014
LARRYCLARKok, thanks for the response.
March 4, 2019
mikeschickFirst, I apologize for what is probably a technical post. Let’s say the shoulder joint, arms, and wrist joint form a double pendulum somewhat like Iron Byron. For the wrist joint to straighten just beyond impact, it would seem that the arms have to slow down before impact. Does this happen in your swing, and do you feel it or are you conscious of it?
An old physicist
March 6, 2019
Paul WilsonMike,
Why would the arms slow down? The only reason the club slows down as it hit the ball is that the club hits the ball which slows it down. Other than that the club would be moving very fast to the release point where the hips actually stop in your golf swing.
Watch:
Impact Hip Rotation (at camera): https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-hip-rotation/
The widest point of the arc is after impact here:
How to Release the Golf Club: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-wrist-release/
So that is the widest point of the arc. The club would be accelerating to this point until it hits the ball which slows it down slightly.