At the top of the backswing I feel like I pause momentarily, long enough to transfer my thoughts to straightening the left leg. This may increase the torque created in the torso, before the arms and shoulders follow the legs. That’s when I get it right, I might get a pull or a push depending on how well I time the downswing trigger. I’m getting more consistent and will persevere, the swing will probably never be perfect but my handicap is dropping.
That’s great news. I definitely like people to take their time at the top. This takes the strength out of the arms and allows for plenty of time to start the lower body first.
My main problem is when i start my backswing and i tend to drop my shoulder and that resulted club face open at the impact, poor shots- extreme slice to right and hit fat shots.
Please advice me on how to cure this problem and perhaps the best drill to practise. Many thanks.
I am sure you talk about it in your vast library of tips and if so, I would appreciate pointing the way to the video.
When I make the swing based on your coaching, it feels (based on years of arm swinging) like my shoulders are lagging waaaay behind my lower body and the ball contact occurs far later in the swing than what I am used to. When I do this, the results are great BUT fighting against that “loss of control” causes me no end of problems as my arms kick in to “catch up” yielding disastrous results.
Breaking years of bad habits are hard and the brain works against you in those circumstances. Could you also point to the videos where I could get a slow motion view that will show this “lag” in your swing as viewed face to face during your setup?
Glad you like the site. I appreciate the feedback.
As far as lag is concerned, once you uncoil your lower body your upper body should be immediately following. This is the spring-like effect I describe in these 3 videos:
I wouldn’t say I feel the arms lagging way behind but for someone who has been hitting for a long time maybe this is the correct feeling. To take the arms out of your swing understand that YES this is an out of control sensation. The club should be swinging where ever it wants to swing. The consistency is created because the mass (club) cannot swing any wider than its widest arc. The forces acting on the mass will allow the mass to swing to its widest point 100% of the time (this is where both arms are stretched out again). So embrace this out of control feeling. In a couple of weeks this should feel normal.
Paul,
Thanks for this and others. Like a lot of things, it’s drill, drill, drill, and then one day–voila! I had this moment last week when I had a shot from some fairly thick rough, a shot I would have thought two months ago the only way to get the ball out would be to muscle it with my hands, arms, and shoulders. Instead, I took a couple of leg-powered practice swings, noted how cleanly the club was ripping through the tall grass, and stepped into the shot, which I put three feet from the green. Once you get the feel, it is easy.
Thanks again.
KW
Convincing yourself that not hitting with your arms is a huge factor. I think you are now seeing it is possible to generate even more power with your body. Now that you ave seen and felt it keep trusting it for all of your shots. If you do, you will see more and more great shots using the body and one day you will give up completely on trying to hit with the arms. Keep at it.
You do not need to be thinking about the shoulders in the downswing. I could be wrong but I am assuming you got this from a recent tip on another website. If so, quit watching that other site so you end all confusion. Watch this tip to clarify the shoulders in the downswing:
Is there any trigger I should know to start the down swing other than shoulder tightness? Anything in my left side or feet too feel to help start the down swing?
Hi Paul,
I understand that at the end of the coiling the body is loaded with tension, like a spring. Would you recommend to actively support the uncoiling with the right leg pushing? Especially after hitting many balls I am getting problems to reach the toughing legs position. So I am wondering if the right leg might help.
Thank you.
Thomas
Paul,
Doing what you describe in this video lesson works marvels ffor me .As you say ,I never think about uncoiling m’y shoulders ,this happens by itself ,automatically .When you are coiled to the utmost ,you do feel it in your back,you can’t go back any further ,and THE uncoiling occurs on it’s own.You CAN also help THE turn with THE inner right insole pushing ,but it’s not a must .To ingrain THE proper move ,I train with two alignment rods : one is placed inside THE right foot ,touching it ,THE other is in front OF THE left foot ,directed at right Angles to THE first one ,parallell to THE target Line .In THE drill you turn your upper body untel THE left shoulder Gets past THE ROD inside THE right foot ,then you unwind THE upper body past THE other ROD in front OF THE left foot ..you must be careful not to Sway backwards when you turn and keep your axis on THE right leg ,not outside it .
This givres you tremendous Power ,Also keep THE hips parallèll to THE target Line as long as possible to create maximum torque .
Glad you like the tips and the site. It takes a ton of work but we have it down now so it is manageable. I’m so glad I started it. It’s all about helping people and this allows me to help anyone in the world.
Paul,
I think that getting the shoulder turn to the tightest position is key to making this work. if I make my backswing and it is not tight as you describe, then when I turn my hips there can be a real lag between my hips and my shoulders. You show this separation when you demonstrate rotating your hips and your shoulders aren’t moving. I think that may be a reason for the ball going right. What do you think?
– ter
Paul,
I think I have some trouble explaining myself. I realize I need to coil and I do, in fact my mantra is “coil and uncoil” during my swing. You are probably right, it is just that I feel my hips are separate from my torso. I had not seen the video you suggested, so I will do so.
thanks,
ter
You talk about moving the shoulders on a flatter plane when you coil and uncoil. You certainly do that with your left shoulder as you make your backswing. On the other hand as I watch your downswing your right shoulder makes a definite downward movement, it drops, it is not flat. When instructors in the past tell me to shift first it is to drop the right shoulder which then will get the club coming in from the inside, if you don’t you come over the top. A slight dropping of the right shoulder seems to bring the club down plane better. I am also doing this while trying to keep my hands and arm loose.Is that drop in your left shoulder due to your hips moving forward and your head staying back which increases your tilt.
Flat shoulders coming down would swing the club too much inside out. If you are over the top the shoulders would be steep coming down. Not sure why you would think otherwise.
Hi Paul.
I do Get that a steep left shoulder (going down?) means you are over the top?
Flat shoulders for me gets me spinning out the shoulders too soon.
Right shoulder down gets the plane from the inside and correct?
Am I wrong?
The right shoulder would go down in the downswing due to the body tilting right in the downswing. If you tilt left the right shoulders would go up. So yes, it should go down.
Ok. I meant shoulders level to the ground swinging through gets me over the top and spinning open too soon. The trail shoulder should go down in response to the uncoiling?
when I start my down swing using my preferred trigger which is to straighten my left leg (Right handed golfer) and turn my lower body I feel as if I let the weight of the club drops to about waist height (Shoulder at 90 degrees to where I’m aiming – starting position direction) then I’m pulling back on my left shoulder before my hands release and rehinge. Knees touch in the process and club shaft ends up touching my head in the finishing position.
If I don’t feel I’m letting the club drop down before twisting the wrists whilst turning my body at best I get push/push fades or other inconsistances – Any comments?
The dropping of the club is keeping you tilted behind the ball in the downswing. This can also be done by just watching the back of the ball as you hit the ball but whatever works. I do give leeway so long as the person is getting it. If so, keep doing it. I prefer you to not think about the arms in the downswing other than not hitting but like I said if it works, keep doing it.
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36 Responses to “Shoulders In The Downswing”
December 22, 2012
DavidWeinsteinAbsolutely right. Since I have been following your method, I “keep my shoulders passive”. Whenever I don’t, I produce a hook.
Davidw
December 24, 2012
Paul WilsonDavid,
Very good. Keep remembering it.
December 22, 2012
BenAt the top of the backswing I feel like I pause momentarily, long enough to transfer my thoughts to straightening the left leg. This may increase the torque created in the torso, before the arms and shoulders follow the legs. That’s when I get it right, I might get a pull or a push depending on how well I time the downswing trigger. I’m getting more consistent and will persevere, the swing will probably never be perfect but my handicap is dropping.
December 24, 2012
Paul WilsonBen,
That’s great news. I definitely like people to take their time at the top. This takes the strength out of the arms and allows for plenty of time to start the lower body first.
Pause At Top: https://ignitiongolf.com/pause-top-backswing
December 30, 2012
Nurul AllbiirrNordinHi paul,
My main problem is when i start my backswing and i tend to drop my shoulder and that resulted club face open at the impact, poor shots- extreme slice to right and hit fat shots.
Please advice me on how to cure this problem and perhaps the best drill to practise. Many thanks.
-albir nordin-
December 31, 2012
Paul WilsonNurul,
I guess you missed the tip I posted last week on this very subject.
Watch:
Turn Back on the Right Angle: https://ignitiongolf.com/backswing-helicopter-blades/
Then do these 2 drills:
DRILL: Sit On The Edge Of A Bar Stool To Set Up – Part 1 of 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/setup-edge-of-bar-stool/
DRILL: How To Feel Torque In Your Backswing – Part 2 of 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-feel-torque-backswing/
January 2, 2013
Nurul AllbiirrNordinThanks Paul
January 3, 2013
Paul WilsonGlad you liked it. Thanks.
May 18, 2013
BruceLaughtonHi Paul:
I am sure you talk about it in your vast library of tips and if so, I would appreciate pointing the way to the video.
When I make the swing based on your coaching, it feels (based on years of arm swinging) like my shoulders are lagging waaaay behind my lower body and the ball contact occurs far later in the swing than what I am used to. When I do this, the results are great BUT fighting against that “loss of control” causes me no end of problems as my arms kick in to “catch up” yielding disastrous results.
Breaking years of bad habits are hard and the brain works against you in those circumstances. Could you also point to the videos where I could get a slow motion view that will show this “lag” in your swing as viewed face to face during your setup?
I love your program.
Bruce
May 20, 2013
Paul WilsonBruce,
Glad you like the site. I appreciate the feedback.
As far as lag is concerned, once you uncoil your lower body your upper body should be immediately following. This is the spring-like effect I describe in these 3 videos:
Coiling: https://ignitiongolf.com/learn-coil-backswing
Uncoil 1: https://ignitiongolf.com/uncoil
Uncoil 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/uncoil-follow-up
I wouldn’t say I feel the arms lagging way behind but for someone who has been hitting for a long time maybe this is the correct feeling. To take the arms out of your swing understand that YES this is an out of control sensation. The club should be swinging where ever it wants to swing. The consistency is created because the mass (club) cannot swing any wider than its widest arc. The forces acting on the mass will allow the mass to swing to its widest point 100% of the time (this is where both arms are stretched out again). So embrace this out of control feeling. In a couple of weeks this should feel normal.
——————————
Do this drill right away:
DRILL: This Is The Best Drill You Should Be Doing Right Now: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-three-quarter-distance/
——————————
Lag Videos:
How to Feel Lag: https://ignitiongolf.com/downswing-lag-1
How To Feel Lag 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/lag-follow-up
Lag Drill: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-lag
Lag Drill 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-move-hips-hold-lag
Old But Good Lag Drill: https://ignitiongolf.com/old-good-lag-drill/
Lag And Release Drill: https://ignitiongolf.com/lag-release-drill
How Lag Affects Power: https://ignitiongolf.com/power-lag/
Holding Your Lag Angle Too Long?: https://ignitiongolf.com/hold-lag-too-long/
November 2, 2013
KeithPaul,
Thanks for this and others. Like a lot of things, it’s drill, drill, drill, and then one day–voila! I had this moment last week when I had a shot from some fairly thick rough, a shot I would have thought two months ago the only way to get the ball out would be to muscle it with my hands, arms, and shoulders. Instead, I took a couple of leg-powered practice swings, noted how cleanly the club was ripping through the tall grass, and stepped into the shot, which I put three feet from the green. Once you get the feel, it is easy.
Thanks again.
KW
November 3, 2013
Paul WilsonKeith,
Convincing yourself that not hitting with your arms is a huge factor. I think you are now seeing it is possible to generate even more power with your body. Now that you ave seen and felt it keep trusting it for all of your shots. If you do, you will see more and more great shots using the body and one day you will give up completely on trying to hit with the arms. Keep at it.
November 20, 2013
DavidAndersonI am currently trying to ACTIVELY NOT engage my shoulders in the start of downswing. Is that reasonable? Thx for everything Paul.
November 21, 2013
Paul WilsonDavid,
You do not need to be thinking about the shoulders in the downswing. I could be wrong but I am assuming you got this from a recent tip on another website. If so, quit watching that other site so you end all confusion. Watch this tip to clarify the shoulders in the downswing:
Shoulders in downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/shoulders-downswing
March 23, 2015
RobertGibsonThanks.
Question answered.
Much appreciated
October 27, 2015
WaltreyerPaul,
Is there any trigger I should know to start the down swing other than shoulder tightness? Anything in my left side or feet too feel to help start the down swing?
Thanks,
Walt
October 28, 2015
Paul WilsonWalt,
The tightness is a backswing trigger. You trigger the downswing with the instep of the back foot, turn hips. turn belt buckle or straighten the lead leg. These are all triggers I give people. You need to choose the one that works best for you.
How To Start The Downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/golf-downswing/
Exactly How to Start the Downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/lead-knee-back/
Exactly How To Do Touch The Legs Position: https://ignitiongolf.com/how-to-touch-the-legs-position/
Thinking About Trigger Before Starting Swing: https://ignitiongolf.com/thinking-about-trigger/
Secret of the Starting the Downswing (using triggers – off big toe curve): https://ignitiongolf.com/shift-roll/
Power: How I Got Power In My Swing: https://ignitiongolf.com/power-dig-foot-in/
June 4, 2016
ThomasZickwolffHi Paul,
I understand that at the end of the coiling the body is loaded with tension, like a spring. Would you recommend to actively support the uncoiling with the right leg pushing? Especially after hitting many balls I am getting problems to reach the toughing legs position. So I am wondering if the right leg might help.
Thank you.
Thomas
June 5, 2016
Paul WilsonThomas,
You can certainly push with the right leg. This is what I do to trigger my swing.
Watch:
Power: How I Got Power In My Swing: https://ignitiongolf.com/power-dig-foot-in/
Secret of the Starting the Downswing (using triggers – off big toe curve): https://ignitiongolf.com/shift-roll/
Make sure you are doing this in practice swings as well as throwing some golf balls overhand to get the feel for it:
It’s Like A Throwing Motion: https://ignitiongolf.com/like-throwing-motion/
Lean On Club to Touch Legs: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-lean-on-club
Legs Touching: https://ignitiongolf.com/touch-knees
June 5, 2016
RaymondCHASTELPaul,
Doing what you describe in this video lesson works marvels ffor me .As you say ,I never think about uncoiling m’y shoulders ,this happens by itself ,automatically .When you are coiled to the utmost ,you do feel it in your back,you can’t go back any further ,and THE uncoiling occurs on it’s own.You CAN also help THE turn with THE inner right insole pushing ,but it’s not a must .To ingrain THE proper move ,I train with two alignment rods : one is placed inside THE right foot ,touching it ,THE other is in front OF THE left foot ,directed at right Angles to THE first one ,parallell to THE target Line .In THE drill you turn your upper body untel THE left shoulder Gets past THE ROD inside THE right foot ,then you unwind THE upper body past THE other ROD in front OF THE left foot ..you must be careful not to Sway backwards when you turn and keep your axis on THE right leg ,not outside it .
This givres you tremendous Power ,Also keep THE hips parallèll to THE target Line as long as possible to create maximum torque .
June 5, 2016
Paul WilsonRaymond,
If this works then keep doing it. I like people thinking outside the box.
June 5, 2016
JohnCosentinoThe personal touch you apply to your teaching and site is amazing and appreciated.
You must have a ” time machine” and stop time, so that you can do all the things that you do for your site and you followers.
Thank you.
June 5, 2016
Paul WilsonJohn,
Glad you like the tips and the site. It takes a ton of work but we have it down now so it is manageable. I’m so glad I started it. It’s all about helping people and this allows me to help anyone in the world.
July 5, 2017
terrybadgerPaul,
I think that getting the shoulder turn to the tightest position is key to making this work. if I make my backswing and it is not tight as you describe, then when I turn my hips there can be a real lag between my hips and my shoulders. You show this separation when you demonstrate rotating your hips and your shoulders aren’t moving. I think that may be a reason for the ball going right. What do you think?
– ter
July 5, 2017
Paul WilsonTerry,
Well, you certainly need to coil. No spring-like effect and you will hit with arms.
The ball is going right because you are firing the lower body way too hard. This is getting ahead of the release. Did you not watch this tip?
DRILL: Golf Swing Timing For More Distance: https://ignitiongolf.com/timing-more-distance/
July 5, 2017
terrybadgerPaul,
I think I have some trouble explaining myself. I realize I need to coil and I do, in fact my mantra is “coil and uncoil” during my swing. You are probably right, it is just that I feel my hips are separate from my torso. I had not seen the video you suggested, so I will do so.
thanks,
ter
May 20, 2018
DonYoshikawaYou talk about moving the shoulders on a flatter plane when you coil and uncoil. You certainly do that with your left shoulder as you make your backswing. On the other hand as I watch your downswing your right shoulder makes a definite downward movement, it drops, it is not flat. When instructors in the past tell me to shift first it is to drop the right shoulder which then will get the club coming in from the inside, if you don’t you come over the top. A slight dropping of the right shoulder seems to bring the club down plane better. I am also doing this while trying to keep my hands and arm loose.Is that drop in your left shoulder due to your hips moving forward and your head staying back which increases your tilt.
May 20, 2018
Paul WilsonDon,
It drops due to the tilt of your body in the downswing.
Illustrating Why A Divot Is Taken: https://ignitiongolf.com/illustrating-divot/
Shoulders in downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/shoulders-downswing/
I don’t want your shoulders level on the way down. This is a backswing thought.
May 30, 2018
StianOttersenHi Paul. Flat shoulders in the downswing would send the club over the top?
May 30, 2018
Paul WilsonStian,
Flat shoulders coming down would swing the club too much inside out. If you are over the top the shoulders would be steep coming down. Not sure why you would think otherwise.
May 30, 2018
StianOttersenHi Paul.
I do Get that a steep left shoulder (going down?) means you are over the top?
Flat shoulders for me gets me spinning out the shoulders too soon.
Right shoulder down gets the plane from the inside and correct?
Am I wrong?
May 31, 2018
Paul WilsonStian,
The right shoulder would go down in the downswing due to the body tilting right in the downswing. If you tilt left the right shoulders would go up. So yes, it should go down.
May 31, 2018
StianOttersenOk. I meant shoulders level to the ground swinging through gets me over the top and spinning open too soon. The trail shoulder should go down in response to the uncoiling?
May 31, 2018
Paul WilsonStian,
It would because your body tilts back in the downswing.
June 9, 2018
CliveThodayPaul
when I start my down swing using my preferred trigger which is to straighten my left leg (Right handed golfer) and turn my lower body I feel as if I let the weight of the club drops to about waist height (Shoulder at 90 degrees to where I’m aiming – starting position direction) then I’m pulling back on my left shoulder before my hands release and rehinge. Knees touch in the process and club shaft ends up touching my head in the finishing position.
If I don’t feel I’m letting the club drop down before twisting the wrists whilst turning my body at best I get push/push fades or other inconsistances – Any comments?
Thanks Clive
June 10, 2018
Paul WilsonClive,
The dropping of the club is keeping you tilted behind the ball in the downswing. This can also be done by just watching the back of the ball as you hit the ball but whatever works. I do give leeway so long as the person is getting it. If so, keep doing it. I prefer you to not think about the arms in the downswing other than not hitting but like I said if it works, keep doing it.