Thank you Paul. I have been trying to do exactly that, but what about the release of the club forward. Here the wrists come into play and I find that with the arms slowing down, the release makes me top the ball. Does not happen off tee tee, for obvious reasons.
If you truly do nothing with the club (mass) it will always stretch out to its widest point 100% of the time. This means that both arms would be fully extended at the release point after the ball is hit. The only way you could top it from here is if you stood up. Typically, topping is from buckling arms and/or looking up. So as much as you think you are not hitting anything if you are topping the ball I guarantee you are trying to hit the ball. The harder you hit the more you will look to see what you hit. The harder you hit the more your arm muscles will contract through impact (chicken wing) thus causing the club to come off of the ground.
Now, if you are trying to manually release the club this would require you to feel the arms when you are trying to manually release it. If this occurs you would probably top the odd shot but in this case you would be working on the release instead of trying to hit perfect shots. Once you got the club releasing you would then turn the arms off again allowing them to stretch out instead of buckling.
So work on the release forgetting about the ball. In doing so the ball would be hooking. Tee it up if you have to.
After you start turning the lower body in the downswing, what mindset do you have how and when the shoulders should be turning. (i guess it’s not powerless shoulders)
I have been working on powerless arms for about 8 months now and have made gradual progress but I wouldn’t be surprised if I still didn’t have a long way to go. This tip might be an important piece of the puzzle.
My question now is how much effort do you put into your lower body movement to get the distance you get? It looks so effortless but I think you mention in another video that there is significant effort you put into it. I find that I am getting closer to getting that lazy motion to my swing by recalling you swinging in one of your videos as I tried to mimic it. However I am having a difficult time getting my lower body to move faster while still having effortless arms.
I am driving the lower body as hard as I can. Remember, your upper body does not even rotate at 3 mph. So driving the lower body hard does not look hard. If you are driving yours and your body is rotating at 2 mph and mine is rotating at 2.5 mph that is a huge difference although visually imperceptible.
Instead of trying to keep the arms powerless while increase your body speed why not get the legs driving as hard as you can then turn your arms off in the future? This would be a better way to do it. Be careful though, when you drive way harder with the lower body you will lose accuracy for a while. Just know the goal. Increase the rotational speed then turn off the arms.
You should be doing this drill as much as possible:
At the moment i am working on my 6 and 7 irons. I am having a difficult time hitting balls perfectly straight on the fairway (it’s easier on the mat at the practice range) but here it’s rainning since November and the ground is very muddy. So i miss the green or my ball goes in the rough . I hit most of the balls 20 yards to the right of my intended target. somebody told me to hit the ball at the toe of the club. I don’t know how to do that !
A push is caused from you sliding or driving the hips too fast causing your body rotation to be too far ahead of the hands. The easiest way to fix this is to hook the ball first. You do this by rolling the wrists early in the downswing. Once you train this to happen you then forget rolling it and add lower body rotation to straighten it out.
I get the feeling you hook a few shots and think this is it. No. You are rolling the wrists and hooking it until you train this rollover to occur withouth thinkign about it. This may take 10 balls or 100 buckets of balls. You just have to keep doing it until the ball hooks 99% of the time. Do this on the range and do practice swings at home rolling the wrists over one another.
Once you are consistently rolling it over you forget rolling it over. Your thought switches to the lower body. If the lower body starts rotating before the club comes down you will hit it dead straight. This means you turn your hands and arms OFF. You think ONLY of turning your lower body with the “touching legs” position.
So hook the ball to get the ball going left. Once you are doing this consistently you then add the lower body rotation to straighten it out.
Dear Paul ,
Do you adhere to the 3 following HOGAN ” secrets ”
-direct the left elbow to the left hip in the downswing( keep the left arm connected to the upper torso )
-“bow ” outwards the left wrist when coming into the ball .
– don’t close the right hand over the left hand in the follow through .
I endeavor to do so and it seems to work for me!
1. There is connection in the downswing under the left armpit. You are not really thinking about it unless you have to.
2. The bowing of the left wrist is due to the fact that impact is not the widest point of the arc. After impact is (the release point). This means the club is still descending as it hits the ball. This causes forward shaft lean and the bowing of the forward wrist. NEVER think impact.
In point 3 ,I mean that you should not Roll the right hand over the left hand as some teachers recommend:you should keep the Palm of the right hand directed towards the ground when coking in the ball : the right Palm which is directed towards the sky ,in the “waiter holding a tray “position at the top of the backswing ,is ” thrown ” downwards towards the ball .
Do you concurr ?
No I don’t concur. I want your arms to be powerless when you swig the club. This means you are not hitting or helping the shot in any way with your arms.
Exception:
If you are working on your release then you would manually release or roll the wrists (feeling your hands and arms). In doing so the ball should be hooking. Once you can do this you forget this roll over (powerless arms) and focus on powering the swing with the body rotation. This will straighten the ball out.
I think you need to watch some more of my tips and understand my technique. My teaching is based on Iron Byron. This machine does not have a right arm until after the ball is hit plus the arm it has is powerless. It only moves when the driveshaft moves it.
Hi Paul, I have been working on turning my arms off and have had great results. I can hit my 7 iron with nice high ball flight out to about 160 to 170 yards. I feel like I’m hitting down too steep. If I were hitting too steep would there be any indication by ball flight? Thanks for all the hard work you do!
If you are too steep you will typically hit the ball higher (which is not a bad thing) if you are not hitting it too high. If you are too steep you would normally be using your arms. Maybe you are actually pulling it (over the top). By tilting the upper body left (over the top) the club would be descending more than necessary. So square up your stance to see if you are coming over the top.
You could also be reaching up too high with your arms. If you reach way up the arms have to come down so you may be pulling the down too steeply. I would watch this tip for the correct top of the backswing:
I just watched this tip as a link from a prior tip. Contrast your smooth, buttery, in-control look with Tiger’s fast-looking and violent action. No wonder he has been an orthopedic mess.
It clearly affected his game. He looked like a fireworks display on the front nine final round of the PGA. Only a career short game and putting performance turned a 74 into a 64.
He is amazing. I have always said that if he went 80% he would be unbeatable but imagine teeing off with all those people around. Would you be paddy caking it down the middle. Doubt it. Oh well. As he gets older he will slow it down. Then we will see how long he can keep going.
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22 Responses to “Downswing Mindset”
February 12, 2013
DavidWeinsteinThank you Paul. I have been trying to do exactly that, but what about the release of the club forward. Here the wrists come into play and I find that with the arms slowing down, the release makes me top the ball. Does not happen off tee tee, for obvious reasons.
Thanks again
Davidw
February 13, 2013
Paul WilsonDavid,
If you truly do nothing with the club (mass) it will always stretch out to its widest point 100% of the time. This means that both arms would be fully extended at the release point after the ball is hit. The only way you could top it from here is if you stood up. Typically, topping is from buckling arms and/or looking up. So as much as you think you are not hitting anything if you are topping the ball I guarantee you are trying to hit the ball. The harder you hit the more you will look to see what you hit. The harder you hit the more your arm muscles will contract through impact (chicken wing) thus causing the club to come off of the ground.
Now, if you are trying to manually release the club this would require you to feel the arms when you are trying to manually release it. If this occurs you would probably top the odd shot but in this case you would be working on the release instead of trying to hit perfect shots. Once you got the club releasing you would then turn the arms off again allowing them to stretch out instead of buckling.
So work on the release forgetting about the ball. In doing so the ball would be hooking. Tee it up if you have to.
Watch:
How to Release the Golf Club: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-wrist-release
Manually Square the Clubface: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-clubface
Manually Square the Clubface (Follow Up): https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-face-follow-up
Once you get the club releasing then turn off the arms and allow them to fully stretch out past impact.
Also, here is a tip on topping:
Topping: https://ignitiongolf.com/stop-topping-golf-ball
And you should be hitting this position:
Spine Angle Follow Through: https://ignitiongolf.com/follow-through-eyes-tilted
February 13, 2013
PascalDevooghtHi Paul,
After you start turning the lower body in the downswing, what mindset do you have how and when the shoulders should be turning. (i guess it’s not powerless shoulders)
Pascal
February 14, 2013
Paul WilsonHi Pascal,
You are not even thinking of the shoulders in the downswing. You are thinking of the “Touch The Legs” position.
Watch:
Shoulders in downswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/shoulders-downswing
February 15, 2013
DavidWeinsteinThank you Paul for such a comprehensive reply.
Davidw
February 13, 2013
jimmarlowHi Paul,
I have been working on powerless arms for about 8 months now and have made gradual progress but I wouldn’t be surprised if I still didn’t have a long way to go. This tip might be an important piece of the puzzle.
My question now is how much effort do you put into your lower body movement to get the distance you get? It looks so effortless but I think you mention in another video that there is significant effort you put into it. I find that I am getting closer to getting that lazy motion to my swing by recalling you swinging in one of your videos as I tried to mimic it. However I am having a difficult time getting my lower body to move faster while still having effortless arms.
February 13, 2013
Paul WilsonJim,
I am driving the lower body as hard as I can. Remember, your upper body does not even rotate at 3 mph. So driving the lower body hard does not look hard. If you are driving yours and your body is rotating at 2 mph and mine is rotating at 2.5 mph that is a huge difference although visually imperceptible.
Instead of trying to keep the arms powerless while increase your body speed why not get the legs driving as hard as you can then turn your arms off in the future? This would be a better way to do it. Be careful though, when you drive way harder with the lower body you will lose accuracy for a while. Just know the goal. Increase the rotational speed then turn off the arms.
You should be doing this drill as much as possible:
DRILL: Listen to Club Swinging: https://ignitiongolf.com/drill-listen-to-club
Also,
How Much Legs Should You Use To Power Your Swing?: https://ignitiongolf.com/downswing-how-much-legs/
Shift and Roll: https://ignitiongolf.com/shift-roll/
February 13, 2013
MicheleTripault2Hi Paul,
At the moment i am working on my 6 and 7 irons. I am having a difficult time hitting balls perfectly straight on the fairway (it’s easier on the mat at the practice range) but here it’s rainning since November and the ground is very muddy. So i miss the green or my ball goes in the rough . I hit most of the balls 20 yards to the right of my intended target. somebody told me to hit the ball at the toe of the club. I don’t know how to do that !
Thank you Paul to help me
Michele
February 13, 2013
MicheleTripault2just to be precise I don’t fade the ball it’s a push. And if I try to manually turn my wrists it becomes a hook
Mich
February 14, 2013
Paul WilsonMichele,
A push is caused from you sliding or driving the hips too fast causing your body rotation to be too far ahead of the hands. The easiest way to fix this is to hook the ball first. You do this by rolling the wrists early in the downswing. Once you train this to happen you then forget rolling it and add lower body rotation to straighten it out.
I get the feeling you hook a few shots and think this is it. No. You are rolling the wrists and hooking it until you train this rollover to occur withouth thinkign about it. This may take 10 balls or 100 buckets of balls. You just have to keep doing it until the ball hooks 99% of the time. Do this on the range and do practice swings at home rolling the wrists over one another.
Once you are consistently rolling it over you forget rolling it over. Your thought switches to the lower body. If the lower body starts rotating before the club comes down you will hit it dead straight. This means you turn your hands and arms OFF. You think ONLY of turning your lower body with the “touching legs” position.
So hook the ball to get the ball going left. Once you are doing this consistently you then add the lower body rotation to straighten it out.
Roll over:
Manually Square the Clubface: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-clubface
Manually Square the Clubface (Follow Up): https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-face-follow-up
Then:
Legs Touching: https://ignitiongolf.com/touch-knees
February 13, 2013
dominicmacedoniaPaul,
Good tip. Of all your tips, the toughest is keeping the arms powerless.
This tip ties in nicely to the chicken wing problem
February 14, 2013
Paul WilsonDom,
People do find it difficult to turn the arms off but once they get it they never want to stop doing it. You know what I mean.
February 14, 2013
MichaelBlockThe irony is Ben Hogan said it is like throwing a ball but with a uncoiling motion as you teach and Not with the arms.
February 15, 2013
Paul WilsonMichael,
I have a Hogan tip coming soon. Funny how so many people idolize him yet so few listen to what he said.
February 18, 2013
RaymondCHASTELDear Paul ,
Do you adhere to the 3 following HOGAN ” secrets ”
-direct the left elbow to the left hip in the downswing( keep the left arm connected to the upper torso )
-“bow ” outwards the left wrist when coming into the ball .
– don’t close the right hand over the left hand in the follow through .
I endeavor to do so and it seems to work for me!
February 18, 2013
Paul WilsonRaymond,
1. There is connection in the downswing under the left armpit. You are not really thinking about it unless you have to.
2. The bowing of the left wrist is due to the fact that impact is not the widest point of the arc. After impact is (the release point). This means the club is still descending as it hits the ball. This causes forward shaft lean and the bowing of the forward wrist. NEVER think impact.
Watch:
Back Wrist at Impact: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-back-wrist
Knuckles Down At Impact: https://ignitiongolf.com/knuckles-down-impact
3. I have no idea what you are talking about.
February 19, 2013
RaymondCHASTELIn point 3 ,I mean that you should not Roll the right hand over the left hand as some teachers recommend:you should keep the Palm of the right hand directed towards the ground when coking in the ball : the right Palm which is directed towards the sky ,in the “waiter holding a tray “position at the top of the backswing ,is ” thrown ” downwards towards the ball .
Do you concurr ?
February 20, 2013
Paul WilsonRaymond,
No I don’t concur. I want your arms to be powerless when you swig the club. This means you are not hitting or helping the shot in any way with your arms.
Exception:
If you are working on your release then you would manually release or roll the wrists (feeling your hands and arms). In doing so the ball should be hooking. Once you can do this you forget this roll over (powerless arms) and focus on powering the swing with the body rotation. This will straighten the ball out.
Watch:
How to Release the Golf Club: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-wrist-release
Manually Square the Clubface: https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-clubface
Manually Square the Clubface (Follow Up): https://ignitiongolf.com/impact-squaring-face-follow-up
I think you need to watch some more of my tips and understand my technique. My teaching is based on Iron Byron. This machine does not have a right arm until after the ball is hit plus the arm it has is powerless. It only moves when the driveshaft moves it.
Watch:
https://ignitiongolf.com/iron-byron/
March 17, 2013
GeorgeNordhaugHi Paul, I have been working on turning my arms off and have had great results. I can hit my 7 iron with nice high ball flight out to about 160 to 170 yards. I feel like I’m hitting down too steep. If I were hitting too steep would there be any indication by ball flight? Thanks for all the hard work you do!
March 17, 2013
Paul WilsonGeorge,
If you are too steep you will typically hit the ball higher (which is not a bad thing) if you are not hitting it too high. If you are too steep you would normally be using your arms. Maybe you are actually pulling it (over the top). By tilting the upper body left (over the top) the club would be descending more than necessary. So square up your stance to see if you are coming over the top.
You could also be reaching up too high with your arms. If you reach way up the arms have to come down so you may be pulling the down too steeply. I would watch this tip for the correct top of the backswing:
Elbow Position Backswing: https://ignitiongolf.com/elbow-position-backswing
Also, watch these tips which explain how the plane should be flattening in the downswing:
Flatten Plane 1: https://ignitiongolf.com/downswing-flatten-plane
Flatten Plane 2: https://ignitiongolf.com/downswing-flatten-plane-2
August 17, 2018
MichaelBarrettPaul,
I just watched this tip as a link from a prior tip. Contrast your smooth, buttery, in-control look with Tiger’s fast-looking and violent action. No wonder he has been an orthopedic mess.
It clearly affected his game. He looked like a fireworks display on the front nine final round of the PGA. Only a career short game and putting performance turned a 74 into a 64.
Mike
August 17, 2018
Paul WilsonMike,
He is amazing. I have always said that if he went 80% he would be unbeatable but imagine teeing off with all those people around. Would you be paddy caking it down the middle. Doubt it. Oh well. As he gets older he will slow it down. Then we will see how long he can keep going.